3/4 sled ... Will Polaris be the first to build one?

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OVR4D

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Hi guys - I'm new to this forum (this is my first post), so I'll start by coming clean and saying up front that I don't own a Polaris snowmobile ... never have. I found this forum through TY. Thanks to Tom for setting this up. Great site you got here.

With that out of the way, I want to start a discussion about 3/4 sleds.

Since no manufacturer currently makes a snowmobile sized between a 120 and adult machine, I'd like to create some interest that hopefully will get the attention of the manufacturers to at least merit some consideration toward building one. I hope folks here will weigh in with input on the subject including whether there is a need for them, what features they should have and most important to me, whether any manufacturer currently has everything needed to produce a 3/4 sled.

With regard to the last question, I think Polaris has most of the pieces needed to build a 3/4 sled, and so that's why I decided to start this thread.

I think the biggest piece of the puzzle for any 3/4 sled project is coming up with the right motor. IMO, the motor should make good, but not excessive power if the market for these sleds will be youth or entry level riders. the sled manufacturers have moved away from building a smaller displacement motors, especially those designed for a CVT. Polaris however, is the exception.

In 2014 I believe, Polaris introduced the PolarStar 32 - a single piston, 325cc fuel-injected 4-stroke engine that is capable of producing 32 hp. This is a cut away image of that motor:
ACE%209650.jpg

It's relatively small in size and I assume, not too heavy. I think it could be good fit for 3/4 sled application.

This motor is currently used in Polaris' ACE and Ranger ATV line-up, and utilizes a CVT as part of the drive train. Since the clutching for this motor already exists, I wonder if it could be used for a sledding application as well.

Polaris also has another piece of the 3/4 sled puzzle ... a smaller sized, lightweight skid. Polaris owns Timbersled Products. A Timbersled Mountainhorse kit, especially the 120 skid, could be a good fit for the PolarStar Engine and small and light enough for a 3/4 sled. Here's a photo of the Timbersled 120 rear suspension.
whats-included.jpg

Except for the lug height, the Timbersled track and skid suspension components could be used. Shock valving might need to be spec'd differently, but that's an easy change to make.

So Polaris already has 2 of the major ingredients for the 3/4 sled recipe. Polaris certainly seems like the sort of company that is not afraid to take risks. In the last decade alone, Polaris has ventured into markets that other companies seem to less willing to enter until proven profitable. With these things in mind, it would make sense for Polaris to develop a 3/4 size snowmobile chassis. The question is whether there is a market big enough to support one? If so, what sort of sled should it be? What features would most people want? How much should it cost? Would you buy one?
 
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Interesting post.Div20

Welcome to the site. This is something that intrigues me and glad you brought it up. The average age of snowmobilers is 42,so........I think all manufacturers need to get younger people involved. But, it has to be less expensive so the younger generation can afford it. These 800 cc class sleds are priced way to high.

Great topic
 
Thanks, Brock. My interest in the subject started when I introduced my kids to snowmobiling and found it difficult to find a suitably sized, reliable sled for them operate.

I don't believe a full size machine is a good fit for kids between 10-14 years old. Even if speed and power can be limited, most full size machines are still too big for kids to handle. There are exceptions I know, but the average adult machine is not a good fit for a kid IMO.

My home state permits kids under 14 years of age to operate a snowmobile on a trial system as long as they are supervised by the child's parent or legal guardian. That's a bit oversimplified, as the parent/guardian must be able to "direct the youth's operation" and kids under 14 are still not allowed to cross public roads. Ironically, the state requires youth to complete snowmobile safety training after age 14. While they have the option to complete safety training and are allowed to operate on grant-in-aid trails before age 14, it seems a little backward to allow kids to operate a snowmobile on a trail system before receiving some safety training. Add to this that many kids are operating full size machines on these trails and the regulations make even less sense.

When I introduced my kids to snowmobiling, I wanted them to have fun ... plain and simple. But I also wanted them to be safe. I never considered buying a 120 mini because I felt frequently getting stuck in deeper snow would not be fun for my kids. I believe success breeds confidence, and if you can improve the odds for success, their confidence builds, and naturally makes the experience fun. With that in mind, I purchased a Yamaha SnoSport as a first sled for my kids.

Yamaha never intended the SnoSport, or its smaller counterpart, the Snoscoot, to be sleds for a youth market. They were supposed to economical entry-level snowmobiles for adults. But they never caught on with Adults and their 3/4 size made them a great fit for kids who were too big for the 120 minis. All of my kids learned about snowmobiling safety, and how to operate a snowmobile, on the Snosport. They did get stuck now and then, but not nearly as often as I believe they would have on a 120, and as their skill and confidence grew, I eventually took them out on trail rides. As a result they had fun and I enjoyed the time we spent together. I believe introducing my kids to the sport would have been more challenging on a larger machine. That's why I'm so interested in the idea of a 3/4 sled for youth.

My youngest boy is now 10. He's been trial riding with me since he was 6. By age 8, he was accompanying me on his Snosport. Next year will be the first year that he'll be eligible to complete snowmobile safety training certification. He's not a big kid by any measure, and even with his experience, I don't want him on a full size sled yet.

The SnoSport is more than 20 years old, and I'm concerned about its reliability. We've had to tow it out more than a few times in the last couple of years. So I'm at a cross roads of sorts ... Do I build a 3/4 sled for my son or will one the OEMs bring one to market? I think Polaris is already in a position to do so. I have my fingers crossed that it's not too late to make some more memories with my son. But even if Polaris, or any other OEM is late to the table, better late than never if you ask me. A 3/4 sled is long overdue. I'd still buy one long after my son has outgrown his need. I'll keep one around for the grandkids when the time comes.
 
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I hope some of the right people read this thread.
There are a lot of families in the same pickle. The current 120's are more or less too small for a 10-13 year old. I hope the mfg.'s step up and build the sled that would fill the hole in the present lineup.
 
I agree with both of you guys.
But, you have to look at it as a marketing stand point from the big fours white collar shoes . Their going to ask the first question?? How much % are we going to sell and how many millions in r&d. That right there will suck the life out of it. I hate to say it. But it's all about bottom line and what sells, not great ideas like these.

But, on the other hand, they need to introduce new and younger generations as the average age is mid 40's .
Something in the $3000.00 to $5000.00 range would attract new younger crowds in my opinion.
 
I'm sure there is market for a 3/4 sled. The size of that market however, is unknown (at least to me). Maybe the big four know exactly what this market looks like, and maybe the numbers just aren't there for them to be interested. But I do know that there is a demand. Sleds like the Snoscoot and SnoSport, the Ski-doo Freestyle 300, Polaris Indy Lite 340 and others are like needles in a haystack. They command high prices in good condition even though these are sleds that have not been produced for years. I think this illustrates that folks want something smaller and less powerful, and that they're willing to pay a premium to get it.

I've often thought the big issue is liability. There's always a risk in marketing a powersports product for youth. But the big four, and other powersports manufacturers offer products for youth in other segments like ATVs and dirt bikes. What's different about snowmobiling that has them shying away from this market?

The other issue IMO, is cost. Snowmobiling seems to be a male dominated, performance driven market. A smaller, less powerful sled (if not marketed for youth) is not likely to appeal to the masses of the snowmobiling demographic. It will be an even tougher sell if costs are as much as a full size machine. To me, this is the problem for manufacturers. The reality I think, is that the cost to produce a 3/4 sled, even if you throw out the R & D costs, is going to be nearly the same as the cost to produce a full size machine. The size of a product doesn't determine its manufacturing costs. The cost of the components used, the assembly process (from a labor standpoint), revenue lost - by foregoing the manufacture of other products, profit margins, etc. all factor into the decision of whether to build. I'm speculating, but I think a big reason a 3/4 sled hasn't been made in recent years is that it would cost nearly as much as a full size machine to produce, and I don't think most consumers would be willing to pay upwards of $8,000 for a youth or entry level sled.

That said, I think most people would prefer a 3/4 sled to be produced by the big four because they want a certain level of quality that frankly cannot be assured (or at least consumer confidence is not as high) in products offered by lesser manufacturers. That is why asked what folks would be willing to pay for a 3/4 sled from one of the big four. I think if the right people do read this, they're going to want to know the answer to that question. For me, in today's market, I think $5,500 - $6,500 MSRP is going to be my limit for this type of sled. Maybe that's an unrealistic number, and if so, I can certainly understand why no one has brought a 3/4 sled to market.

It would be nice if someone with a better understanding of manufacturing would chime in here and share their thoughts on the subject.
 
I don't think it's going to happen. I know young kids that ride a Indy 600 and do fine. I started riding on a full size TXL Indy. Actually see manufactures even going farther from the youth sleds. Arctic cat was making the sno pro 500/ procross 4000rr which was the ultimate youth sled 86 hp race class but there not making them this year. there going to let them run the full size race sleds next year tuned down. Ac jag is another good youth sled. A company tried selling a youth sled phantom snowmobiles no one bought them
 
This has been brought up and tried before. Search for Premier Industires. they tried the 3/4 kids sled, Never took off. the cost is jut to high for a mfg to get involved based on the return profit. Profit is all a mfg cares about.
 
Cory I did not see your post before I posted. I forgot about Phantom. They bought out Premier I believe. They didn't make a go of it either.
 
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