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Exhaust Valves on Patriot 850

Discussion in 'Indy' started by Rbell14, Dec 9, 2020.

  1. Rbell14

    Rbell14 Member

    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    Plymouth, Mi
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    10
    Snowmobile:
    2021 Indy VR1 850
    2016 Rush Pro S 600
    Got my new Matryx Patriot 850 and owners manual doesn't mention anything about cleaning the exhaust valves. My wifes Liberty 600 still requires the exhaust valves to be cleaned.

    Is something different on the new 850 that makes this unnecessary? Manual actually calls out the 650 needing the cleaning at 1,500 miles but only references the 650, nothing on the 850?? Both are VES engines I believe?
     
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  3. TurboJamie

    TurboJamie Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    127
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Years Snowmobiling:
    33
    Snowmobile:
    2018 SBA 144
    While I haven't read the manual usually a valve service is recommended as an annual thing. When I do pre-season work on a few sleds I service annually I always check the valves. Normally they are never all that bad as truthfully most guys just don't put that many miles on. For the guys who are getting the 2k miles + its worth taking a look at them.

    I found a video with a bit more information enjoy.

     
  4. Rbell14

    Rbell14 Member

    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    Plymouth, Mi
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    10
    Snowmobile:
    2021 Indy VR1 850
    2016 Rush Pro S 600
    Interesting video. Also confirms that the owners manual doesn’t talk about required cleaning but real world visual appears a cleaning on occasion is warranted.

    Thanks for posting.
     
  5. Lid1

    Lid1 Active Member

    Messages:
    236
    Location:
    Ny
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    32
    Snowmobile:
    Axys
    Yup. Since the 800ho poo hasn’t recommended cleaning the valves on these big bores unless there is an issue identified by a trouble code. But it’s my opinion that it’s still a good idea to do it. (I and all my riding buddies do ) just don’t move things around or you will need to have a dealer with digital wrench perform a relearn procedure. For valves not reaching command position
     
  6. coryatver

    coryatver Active Member

    Messages:
    391
    Location:
    PA
    Since the 800ho engine that came out in 2015, With an Electronic operated exhaust valve system, they no longer need cleaned.

    Old design used vacuum. the vacuum ports would get clogged and cause the valves to no longer function. That is why they needed cleaned. The new design, this is not an issue. Polaris does not want people cleaning them. Also if you do mess with them, don't tear the assembly apart. They are calibrated. Also even if you leave the cable connected and clean it, Id still recommend taking it to a dealer to plug into digital wrench to calibrate the valves.

    You can press on the valves, and if they move easy, thats proof there is no reason to clean them
     
    TurboJamie likes this.
  7. TurboJamie

    TurboJamie Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    127
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Years Snowmobiling:
    33
    Snowmobile:
    2018 SBA 144
    Yes the valves are getting more complex for the end user to service. I do disagree with the mentality being pushed onto customers that they are a non needed service. Depending on mileage I know they can get very caked with build up and become difficult to remove.
     
  8. coryatver

    coryatver Active Member

    Messages:
    391
    Location:
    PA
    i really feel the valves are a non issue on the new sleds. Dealers do not clean them anymore, at least the polaris dealers around me. They won't touch them. And they been selling these sleds since 2015 at this point there are a lot out there. If it was an issue you would hear about it constantly just like the older sleds. But overall most are not cleaning them, and not having any problems.
     
  9. coryatver

    coryatver Active Member

    Messages:
    391
    Location:
    PA
    on the subject of valves, Another interesting thing is the 2021 850 patriot they have went from a 3 position valve system to a completely variable valve system. Will be interesting to see how it will work as they now can electronically completely control the valve position, where before it was either closed, half open, or all the way open. this should make them run even better.
     
  10. Lid1

    Lid1 Active Member

    Messages:
    236
    Location:
    Ny
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    32
    Snowmobile:
    Axys
    I pull valves on sleds 800ho and newer all the time. They get caked , and sludged up just like any other valve. It is correct there is no pressure hole to plug up but they still get nasty. And can cause a failure to obtain command position. They gatcreal nasty on the finger sides in the cyl. Also. Ive has to wrestle with some just to get them out. My position is I can’t find a reason not to clean them.
     
  11. coryatver

    coryatver Active Member

    Messages:
    391
    Location:
    PA
    Some people like messing with there sleds thats great if you want to pull the valves out and clean them. Obviously a lot of enthusiast on here that have had sleds for years, are accustomed to doing it.

    but saying that this is a required maintenance item on the 800ho is not true.

    Just like adding premix first tank of gas for a new sled, this is not a thing anymore. But some people still do it because they always have and probably always will.
     
  12. Lid1

    Lid1 Active Member

    Messages:
    236
    Location:
    Ny
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    32
    Snowmobile:
    Axys
    Thats what polaris says until there is an exhaust valve code at dealer etc. then they say to pull the valves. Clean and do a relearn. They do seem to be worse after the fist 1500 miles than the second . I’m assuming that comes from additional oil during break in. Meh to each thier own. I’m a preventative type. Some may never naturally have a gummed up valve and some may. I def. will not because I keep em clean. What polaris says and what’s seen in the field when dealing with hundreds and hundreds of sleds are not always eye to eye .
     
  13. Rbell14

    Rbell14 Member

    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    Plymouth, Mi
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    10
    Snowmobile:
    2021 Indy VR1 850
    2016 Rush Pro S 600
    Great discussion. So here is a follow-up question.

    My manual for the 2021 850 does not reference anything about cleaning exhaust valves on the 850. As mentioned earlier in the post, the 850's are electrically controlled vs. vacuum controlled. My manual does say for the 650 to clean exhaust valves at 1,500 miles.

    So is the 650 patriot vacuum controlled and the 850 electronically controlled exhaust valves?

    That part seems odd, one would think they both would be electronically controlled but I could be wrong. (Page 149 of manual)
     
  14. coryatver

    coryatver Active Member

    Messages:
    391
    Location:
    PA
    I also noticed this. The 650 has the same valve design as the 850 so it’s curious


     
  15. probill

    probill New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Ontario
    My experience is that the valves need to be cleaned if you are putting miles on the sled. I had a 19 850 that ran pretty good the first year. Start of second year I got the reflash and it its started to go downhill from there. As I got deeper in to the second season the coding got worse and worse. Talked to the dealer numerous times but couldnt get it fixed. Run quality of the motor got worse and worse. Finally on 3rd day of a long saddlebag trip I stopped in to another dealer who asked how I liked the sled. We had a quick chat, mechanic came out says I can fix that quick for you. I see that all the time. He pulls the sled in and 1 hour later with cleaned valves I am on my way and the sled ran almost as well as the first year. Run quality was way better. You could tell just by the sound of the motor. Went from throwing codes every 20 min to throwing codes maybe twice a day. The sled had about 5200 miles on it at the time. I have a 2021 850 now and it will get the valves cleaned every year by me. No need to relearn if you dont disconnect the cable.
     
    Lid1 likes this.
  16. racerdave

    racerdave Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    1,074
    Location:
    Will County, Illinois
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    since 1976
    Snowmobile:
    AXYS Switcher 800,Indy600sp,XCSP600ves
    Not taking a stance either way. On another site, a well respected and knowledgeable member, says that some of the gunk, may help to eliminate some valve vibration, that may cause valve cracking/failure. Food for thought.
     
  17. Lid1

    Lid1 Active Member

    Messages:
    236
    Location:
    Ny
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    32
    Snowmobile:
    Axys
    Ya I’ve seen that posting. I reject that idea. As a lot of the build up is above the valves which is why they can be very hard to get out. I also don’t believe for a second the engineer design it to get dirty to cushion valves vibration. I think the poster has read it in manual that cleaning isn’t necessary and is reaching to justify that idea. It’s been disproven many times that they don’t need cleaning. It’s nonsence
     
  18. Rbell14

    Rbell14 Member

    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    Plymouth, Mi
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    10
    Snowmobile:
    2021 Indy VR1 850
    2016 Rush Pro S 600
    Agree - I was looking for a technical answer on why a 650 should be cleaned but yet nothing about an 850 being cleaned. Engine architecture is basically same. I've logged a ticket with Polaris to get a technical answer "if one exists", but I suspect cleaning the 850 makes sense to me.
     
  19. Rbell14

    Rbell14 Member

    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    Plymouth, Mi
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    10
    Snowmobile:
    2021 Indy VR1 850
    2016 Rush Pro S 600
    Received an official email response from Polaris today regarding why a 650 needs exhaust valves cleaned and an 850 does not. They said there is a misprint in the owners manual and that both the 650/850 do not require exhaust valve cleanings. Next update to manual will have this update incorporated.

    I've asked for a specific reason why. What's different in architecture or technology that allows them to no longer requiring cleaning? Still waiting on an answer....

    I'm with most of you. I think at some point they will require cleaning in order to support performance we all want.
     

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