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team vs p2

Discussion in 'Rush/Switchback' started by Brock, May 14, 2015.

  1. Brock

    Brock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,141
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Years Snowmobiling:
    30+
    Snowmobile:
    Polaris
    Thought it would be good base line information to post destructive test and technical information below that compares the P2 Vs. TSS-04 secondaries. The engineer that generated the comparison is very qualified and is based on actual hands on test results and CVT power train design experience. I don't feel it is appropriate to reveal the source at this time but just consider the information as input when your TSS-04 need replacing. I hope to devote time this winter (if we get snow) refining both primary and P2 clutches spring and weight combinations for a 2010 Turbo LX with 2012 flash. To date the TSS-04 with PS helix is favored and that's only due to the extensive development and work by others on the site. In the end I believe the P2 with 3 rollers will rank on top. The TSS-04 non replaceable helix bushing and sheave bushing wear is the culprit that gradually causes performance deterioration. Another topic on this site shows a prototype replacement TSS helix bushing with 2.5 times the surface area.

    The P2 has better top speed and back shift for several reasons:
    1) It runs less spring force because its engagement and shift out heights are bigger than the team. The high shift out force of the Team restricts high ratio
    2) Its bearing span is wider and therefore it can run looser fitting bearings while maintaining the same or better sheave alignment
    3) Three rollers keep the moveable sheave more correctly aligned with the stationary during up-shift and down-shift.
    4) The helix stands alone in the clutch. It does not attach to a sheave. This separates the torque transfer function from the torque feedback function. Belt pull (800-1000 lbs force) does not side load the helix.
    5) The spring stays centered in the clutch and the sides of the spring do the rub anything in the clutch like in the team. The Team TSS-04 implemented this change on the 2011 models to improve backshift. They did it by chamfering the spider spring cup and added the same chamfer as the P2 to the steel spring cup.
    6) The P2 come stock with a delrin cup in the helix to reduce friction
    7) The three rollers maintain sheave spacing all around the clutch in the neutral position. Look at how much wider the sheave spacing is on the Team clutch near the tension adjuster screw. This affects your starting ratio.
    The P2 lives on an engine test dyno approximately 3 times that of the Team TSS-04. The Team TSS-04 will complete 9 power-on jumps off a 3 foot loading ramp on wet dirt with 192 studded track before it either shatters the roller or spins the threaded in shaft.
    The P2, with it's cast-in shaft, will complete between 28 and 45 of the same jump and will crack the stationary sheave at the shaft interface or break a tooth off the helix. The suspension rails will be replaced three times before completing this test with the P2. The suspension rails are the fuse in a sled with the P2.
    I have run this clutch on my race sleds for 4 years now with no issues. I don't know anyone that has switched to this clutch and had issues.
     
    JERSEY-XCR, Powaton and Jet800 like this.
  2.  
  3. Bigfuse

    Bigfuse Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    Sunny Manitoba
    I'm geared to 1.74, have a Gates belt, 10-72 weights, 120-310 primary spring in my sled. Also plan on reshimming my primary to have around .015 belt to sheave clearance. If you plan on using a P2 secondary you'll need from a 2011 600 Rush the bolt that holds on the clutch plus the aluminum spacer. Transfer all of the washers from the bolt that holds on the Team clutch to the new longer bolt in to the same position. I'd start with a Dalton 66-44-.45 helix and a 130-180 spring. If your Team is aligned properly then you won't have to realign the P2. I've used this clutch on my 2009 Dragon and 2011 Rush with great results.
     
    Jet800 likes this.
  4. Brock

    Brock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,141
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Years Snowmobiling:
    30+
    Snowmobile:
    Polaris
    By the way guy's I didn't write this. I copied it from a guy that knows a thing or two.
     
  5. PolarisTim

    PolarisTim OK SNOW Anytime now!!

    Messages:
    227
    Location:
    Farmington MN
    I need to find out what the best gearing and clutch weights to use for the best reliable performance. Right now I'm running SLP weights and springs. It seems to be great, but I just feel I'm losing something. I should bring it to Bikeman performance and have them test it, and get me the best gears, and clutching I can get for what I want. Whether it's the gates belt or the poo belt. I just want consistent performance! I ride hard and I'm ok with a belt going every couple thousand miles. But I want it to be consistent power all the way through the life of the belt!
     
  6. Brock

    Brock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,141
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Years Snowmobiling:
    30+
    Snowmobile:
    Polaris
    Slp makes good products, I use them a lot.
    Gearing and clutching will get you consistent if done proper.
    You have the 1.75" track so I would definitely gear it to 1.81 ratio first and try what you already have for clutching first .
     
    MrSled likes this.
  7. PolarisTim

    PolarisTim OK SNOW Anytime now!!

    Messages:
    227
    Location:
    Farmington MN
    Ok, I will try that!
     
  8. Gabes

    Gabes New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I'm not a fan of the MTX weights. The Dalton QAP's are ten times the weight and best ones out there.
     
  9. Bigfuse

    Bigfuse Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    Sunny Manitoba
    Easiest weights to tune. Div20
     
  10. Gabes

    Gabes New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    Minnesota
    What!?!? You don't like taking a hammer and smashing a rivet into one of the holes on the weight???
     
    Brock likes this.
  11. Bigfuse

    Bigfuse Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    Sunny Manitoba
    Best part about the Dalton weights is that you don't have to remove them to tune.
     
  12. Brock

    Brock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,141
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Years Snowmobiling:
    30+
    Snowmobile:
    Polaris
    The profile is a little more aggressive then the 10 and 11 series. Better belt pinch.Also the Dalton pro's have a heavier tip for better belt pinch up top to shift out better .:)
    I'm just getting the non adjustable Dalton pro's.:)
     
    Bassett Star likes this.
  13. Brock

    Brock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,141
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Years Snowmobiling:
    30+
    Snowmobile:
    Polaris
    Nice to see you here my friend . :cool:
     
  14. PRose

    PRose New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Nova Scotia, Canada
    Can anyone answer why Poo hasn't come on full steam with their P2 ? Why hasn,t the 800 ever come stock with one ? Does the 600 still come with one ? The P2 was released a few years back and is used very little by Poo.........Seems strange ............just saying
     
  15. Brock

    Brock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,141
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Years Snowmobiling:
    30+
    Snowmobile:
    Polaris
    The only thing I can think of is polaris has a contract with team industries and the P2 may just cost more to manufacture themselves???

    The P2 is a better secondary with 3 rollers, not 2. For better stability.
     
  16. Bigfuse

    Bigfuse Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    Sunny Manitoba
    It's also a faster secondary Brock.
     
  17. Gabes

    Gabes New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Was talking about the P2 vs Team with Chris Wolf (Polaris vice president of snowmobiles) He didn't even know that they went away from the P2 back to the Team. I'm guessing that the call was made by somebody below him for cost reasons.
     
    Brock likes this.
  18. Jet800

    Jet800 Member

    Messages:
    98
    That's funny.
     
  19. Brock

    Brock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,141
    Location:
    Ontario
    Country:
    Canada
    Years Snowmobiling:
    30+
    Snowmobile:
    Polaris
    Why doesn't that surprise me. Lol

    Maybe he should inquire what his workers are actually doing sometimes .
     
  20. racerdave

    racerdave Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    1,051
    Location:
    Will County, Illinois
    Country:
    USA
    Years Snowmobiling:
    since 1976
    Snowmobile:
    AXYS Switcher 800,Indy600sp,XCSP600ves
    Why? He seen the bottom line. Thats all upper management cares about.
     
  21. HSR

    HSR Guest

    Funny,when they unveiled the axys sleds to us,,,Chris new EVERY detail of the sled,,,including what clutches were used.
     

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